1 00:00:08,383 --> 00:00:09,553 I have a lot of things that I’ve forgotten, 2 00:00:09,592 --> 00:00:11,302 that I can’t remember. 3 00:00:11,344 --> 00:00:13,224 For instance, I can go back to my childhood and stuff, 4 00:00:13,263 --> 00:00:16,433 and I still remember that, but yet, I can go into the ’70s, 5 00:00:17,100 --> 00:00:19,270 and there are a lot of things I can’t remember. 6 00:00:19,310 --> 00:00:21,730 The same thing with the victims: I’ve looked at all of ... 7 00:00:21,771 --> 00:00:23,481 I don’t know if you notice here. 8 00:00:23,523 --> 00:00:25,073 We’ve got pictures of every one of the victims here, 9 00:00:25,108 --> 00:00:27,318 and believe it or not, for the last 12 years, 10 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,570 I’ve studied these photos of these victims, 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:31,740 and there is no ... 12 00:00:33,825 --> 00:00:36,485 We have a shot of all of the victims together here, 13 00:00:37,620 --> 00:00:40,330 and when you look over at the photos, 14 00:00:40,373 --> 00:00:43,173 I have no recollection of any of them, never met them. 15 00:00:43,793 --> 00:00:45,633 And we’ve gone over this more than once. 16 00:00:45,670 --> 00:00:49,220 It’s just names and faces, and when you look at them ... 17 00:00:52,469 --> 00:00:54,509 The thing of it is, we took it a step further. 18 00:00:54,554 --> 00:00:55,814 We went into their backgrounds. 19 00:00:55,847 --> 00:00:57,677 I wanted to know where they were at, 20 00:00:57,724 --> 00:01:00,524 what schools they attended, who they hung out with 21 00:01:01,644 --> 00:01:04,154 and what kind of activities they were into, 22 00:01:04,189 --> 00:01:06,319 and that’s what we dug up on each one of the victims, 23 00:01:06,358 --> 00:01:08,608 but still, there is no association. 24 00:01:09,486 --> 00:01:12,356 None of them never worked for me. None of them ... 25 00:01:12,405 --> 00:01:14,905 They never went to any places that I ever hung around 26 00:01:14,949 --> 00:01:16,619 because I didn’t hang around that many places. 27 00:01:16,659 --> 00:01:18,579 Unless you were involved in politics 28 00:01:18,953 --> 00:01:21,213 or if you were involved in clowning, 29 00:01:21,247 --> 00:01:23,167 then I might have ran into you. 30 00:01:23,208 --> 00:01:24,878 But there’s no way I could’ve run into any of them. 31 00:02:03,915 --> 00:02:07,455 I was reviewing the interview last night, 32 00:02:07,502 --> 00:02:10,422 and having listened to those lies for so many years, 33 00:02:10,463 --> 00:02:13,683 it’s like ... I found I wasn’t really listening. 34 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:19,640 I was watching the other tells: the eye motions, 35 00:02:19,681 --> 00:02:23,271 the hand motions, the hands on the book. 36 00:02:23,309 --> 00:02:24,559 They’ve got all that jewelry 37 00:02:24,602 --> 00:02:26,522 that doesn’t belong to the victim. 38 00:02:26,563 --> 00:02:28,613 They’ve got the two clown suits that don’t belong to the victim. 39 00:02:28,648 --> 00:02:31,358 John researched all of his victims. 40 00:02:31,901 --> 00:02:35,241 He would put together background information. 41 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,700 He had chapters, 20, 30 pages on victims, 42 00:02:39,743 --> 00:02:44,543 and a lot of it was clearly made up or hearsay, 43 00:02:44,581 --> 00:02:48,751 but he felt it was something that made a case for him, 44 00:02:49,753 --> 00:02:52,673 that, "Well, yeah, 45 00:02:52,714 --> 00:02:55,514 maybe I killed them, but maybe they deserved it." 46 00:02:55,550 --> 00:02:57,840 Just like I consider myself the 34th victim, 47 00:02:58,636 --> 00:03:01,426 I consider the families victims, as well, 48 00:03:01,890 --> 00:03:04,350 because they did not get justice 49 00:03:04,976 --> 00:03:07,516 from the shoddy investigation all the way down through ... 50 00:03:07,562 --> 00:03:08,902 It wasn’t until just 51 00:03:08,938 --> 00:03:13,858 recently that in going through my archives, 52 00:03:14,861 --> 00:03:21,581 I found some tapes that John had given me in March of ’94 53 00:03:22,577 --> 00:03:24,577 before his execution. 54 00:03:24,621 --> 00:03:28,421 He didn’t want the guards cleaning out his cell, 55 00:03:28,458 --> 00:03:32,458 so one day, I went out of there with tapes and books, 56 00:03:34,047 --> 00:03:35,797 and I just stuffed them in a box, 57 00:03:36,925 --> 00:03:41,045 so they sat in that box until about a year ago, 58 00:03:42,472 --> 00:03:44,022 and I’m going, 59 00:03:44,057 --> 00:03:46,937 "Oh, those tapes aren’t with all the other tapes." 60 00:03:48,812 --> 00:03:50,022 So we listened to them. 61 00:03:50,063 --> 00:03:51,863 What’d you do with them? 62 00:03:52,899 --> 00:03:54,649 Threw them downstairs in the basement. 63 00:03:54,693 --> 00:03:55,993 Just threw them down there? 64 00:03:56,027 --> 00:03:57,897 Just threw them down in the crawl space. 65 00:03:58,655 --> 00:04:03,785 It’s Gacy confessing and mostly saying, "Yeah. 66 00:04:03,827 --> 00:04:06,957 I did that. I don’t know why." 67 00:04:07,622 --> 00:04:10,542 All the ones you remember seem to be is house itself. 68 00:04:10,583 --> 00:04:12,343 Yeah. 69 00:04:12,377 --> 00:04:15,667 There is this other person, who I think is his lawyer. 70 00:04:16,464 --> 00:04:18,724 Those last few were killed in the house. 71 00:04:18,758 --> 00:04:19,928 All the ones you remember 72 00:04:19,968 --> 00:04:22,388 were found dead or killed in the house. 73 00:04:22,429 --> 00:04:24,849 Or the garage, yeah. Killed in the garage? 74 00:04:26,349 --> 00:04:27,639 Yeah. 75 00:04:27,684 --> 00:04:29,484 Why were the last few dumped in a river, 76 00:04:29,519 --> 00:04:31,019 as opposed to being buried? 77 00:04:31,855 --> 00:04:35,025 I don’t know. It was easier. 78 00:04:38,069 --> 00:04:46,949 This is probably in early ’79 while he was still nervous. 79 00:04:46,995 --> 00:04:50,035 You can hear that in his voice. He’s not in control. He’s upset. 80 00:04:51,124 --> 00:04:52,924 I think I killed him, but I don’t know. 81 00:04:52,959 --> 00:04:55,089 What do you mean, you think you killed him? 82 00:04:55,754 --> 00:04:57,464 Well, he was dead. 83 00:04:59,924 --> 00:05:04,554 I don’t quite understand why he gave them to me, 84 00:05:04,929 --> 00:05:09,809 but these tapes, he knew what was on them. 85 00:05:10,894 --> 00:05:12,814 He had to have. 86 00:05:12,854 --> 00:05:14,774 There is one guy I remember taking out of the house 87 00:05:14,814 --> 00:05:16,864 and throwing him in the forest preserve. 88 00:05:17,734 --> 00:05:19,494 That was 2 years ago. 89 00:05:20,695 --> 00:05:22,605 Took him out of the house? Yeah. 90 00:05:22,655 --> 00:05:24,405 Then put him in the woods. 91 00:05:25,408 --> 00:05:26,988 Why the hell is that hitting me now? 92 00:05:27,035 --> 00:05:29,155 Bury him in the woods? No, I didn’t bury him. 93 00:05:29,788 --> 00:05:31,458 Just laid him in the woods. 94 00:05:31,498 --> 00:05:33,038 I just took him out in the woods and ... 95 00:05:33,083 --> 00:05:35,043 What woods? 96 00:05:35,085 --> 00:05:37,045 Over by Maine Township High School. 97 00:05:38,922 --> 00:05:40,842 You took him out of your house, though? 98 00:05:40,882 --> 00:05:42,592 Yeah. He was in my house. 99 00:05:43,051 --> 00:05:45,141 He was convicted of 33 murders, 100 00:05:46,137 --> 00:05:50,927 but there were many missing persons or murders 101 00:05:50,975 --> 00:05:54,725 that happened during John’s active period 102 00:05:54,771 --> 00:05:58,781 that could have been his work. 103 00:06:00,110 --> 00:06:05,820 There’s no reason to think that John only killed 33 victims. 104 00:06:06,866 --> 00:06:10,996 He had a pattern. He had a success rate, 105 00:06:12,622 --> 00:06:14,752 and he was prolific in everything he did. 106 00:06:24,634 --> 00:06:26,224 When investigators began taking bodies 107 00:06:26,261 --> 00:06:27,761 out of the crawl space 108 00:06:27,804 --> 00:06:29,974 under John Wayne Gacy’s Norwood Park home, 109 00:06:30,015 --> 00:06:32,515 they were never able to identify eight of them. 110 00:06:33,143 --> 00:06:34,813 Now, Cook County sheriff Tom Dart 111 00:06:34,853 --> 00:06:37,193 is hoping to offer their families some closure 112 00:06:37,230 --> 00:06:39,770 by asking them to come forward with a DNA sample 113 00:06:39,816 --> 00:06:42,106 that can be matched to newly extracted DNA. 114 00:06:42,694 --> 00:06:44,204 We haven’t forgotten. 115 00:06:48,533 --> 00:06:53,543 Reopening the case was really a strange sort of story. 116 00:06:53,580 --> 00:06:56,670 When I first got in office, 117 00:06:57,584 --> 00:07:01,464 I was wanting to do things differently. 118 00:07:01,504 --> 00:07:04,094 With all the advances that we’ve had in our ... 119 00:07:05,592 --> 00:07:06,972 not just on the criminal side of things, 120 00:07:07,010 --> 00:07:10,010 but just technology and particularly DNA ... 121 00:07:10,055 --> 00:07:15,555 I felt that cold cases should be reexamined. 122 00:07:17,270 --> 00:07:19,650 At the time, we had a detective that was working with us named 123 00:07:19,689 --> 00:07:21,979 Jason Moran, and he came to me, and he said, 124 00:07:22,025 --> 00:07:25,525 "Well, what about us working on the Gacy case first?" 125 00:07:25,987 --> 00:07:29,117 And I go, "Listen, there’s nothing cold about this case. 126 00:07:29,157 --> 00:07:32,867 Gacy was caught, convicted, executed. 127 00:07:33,244 --> 00:07:34,954 What are you talking about?" 128 00:07:35,872 --> 00:07:37,752 The sheriff and I, we were in the process 129 00:07:37,791 --> 00:07:41,171 of sort of organizing things and getting our cases together, 130 00:07:41,211 --> 00:07:42,801 and I came across the cabinet. 131 00:07:42,837 --> 00:07:47,837 It said 1978, Gacy, and just out of curiosity, 132 00:07:47,884 --> 00:07:50,684 I opened it up, and by doing that, I learned 133 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,270 that eight of Gacy’s 33 victims were never identified. 134 00:07:56,643 --> 00:07:58,853 Friends and relatives of missing teenage boys 135 00:07:58,895 --> 00:08:00,685 have been calling from all over the country 136 00:08:00,730 --> 00:08:02,900 to learn more about this bizarre crime. 137 00:08:03,900 --> 00:08:05,860 We were under the impression that the Gacy case 138 00:08:05,902 --> 00:08:07,152 was cleared and closed. 139 00:08:07,195 --> 00:08:09,525 The offender was known, was found guilty, 140 00:08:09,572 --> 00:08:12,242 and the victims had been identified, cleared and closed, 141 00:08:13,076 --> 00:08:15,616 but it wasn’t, and it wasn’t for lack of trying. 142 00:08:16,079 --> 00:08:20,919 My predecessors did what they could to identify 143 00:08:20,959 --> 00:08:22,539 every last victim. 144 00:08:22,585 --> 00:08:25,005 Doctors and dentists matched bones and teeth 145 00:08:25,046 --> 00:08:26,966 against medical records and X-rays. 146 00:08:27,632 --> 00:08:29,722 The bodies found under John Gacy’s house 147 00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:31,589 were simply too decomposed 148 00:08:31,636 --> 00:08:33,806 to allow any other means of identification. 149 00:08:34,806 --> 00:08:36,846 But in the end, there was eight 150 00:08:36,891 --> 00:08:39,941 that were never identified, eight forgotten people, 151 00:08:41,104 --> 00:08:43,614 so I took that information to the sheriff. 152 00:08:49,654 --> 00:08:51,874 Back in the ’70s, everything was dental records. 153 00:08:51,906 --> 00:08:54,076 That was the only way you could identify people. 154 00:08:54,117 --> 00:08:59,657 Jason was adamant that based on new technologies and DNA 155 00:08:59,706 --> 00:09:02,706 that we could make some headway. 156 00:09:06,046 --> 00:09:10,126 The point of any cold case is to bring contemporary 157 00:09:10,175 --> 00:09:12,635 investigative methods to an old investigation. 158 00:09:13,386 --> 00:09:16,766 We knew that in this case, DNA would be helpful. 159 00:09:18,433 --> 00:09:23,233 To start, we needed a biological sample from each victim 160 00:09:24,814 --> 00:09:27,194 so we could test it in a lab 161 00:09:27,233 --> 00:09:29,693 and see if we could get suitable DNA profiles, 162 00:09:30,278 --> 00:09:33,028 so the first thing we had to do was go to the bodies. 163 00:09:34,157 --> 00:09:36,237 In June, the sheriff’s office exhumed the jawbones 164 00:09:36,284 --> 00:09:39,414 of eight unnamed victims buried at a Homewood cemetery. 165 00:09:39,454 --> 00:09:42,004 They were originally saved to compare to dental records 166 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,790 but contained enough DNA for four complete profiles. 167 00:09:44,834 --> 00:09:46,294 In September, 168 00:09:46,336 --> 00:09:48,796 bodies were exhumed from four Chicago-area cemeteries, 169 00:09:48,838 --> 00:09:51,798 and samples were sent to labs of the University of North Texas, 170 00:09:51,841 --> 00:09:54,091 where additional DNA profiles were extracted. 171 00:09:54,969 --> 00:09:59,809 That process got us to where we had, on most of the victims, 172 00:09:59,849 --> 00:10:02,849 very good profiles. They were all suitable 173 00:10:03,311 --> 00:10:05,981 for comparison to family members of missing persons, 174 00:10:06,856 --> 00:10:08,356 and that was really 175 00:10:08,942 --> 00:10:12,032 when we launched the investigation to the public. 176 00:10:12,070 --> 00:10:14,320 Cook County sheriff Tom Dart is calling on families 177 00:10:14,364 --> 00:10:16,244 who think a loved one may have been a victim of 178 00:10:16,282 --> 00:10:19,992 John Wayne Gacy to come forward and offer up a DNA sample. 179 00:10:20,036 --> 00:10:21,656 In particular, the sheriff’s department 180 00:10:21,705 --> 00:10:23,155 is looking for victims of relatives of victims 181 00:10:23,206 --> 00:10:27,246 who disappeared between 1970 and December 22nd, 1978. 182 00:10:27,293 --> 00:10:30,173 Well, right away, the phones and the e-mails 183 00:10:30,213 --> 00:10:33,263 started flowing in, people from all over the country 184 00:10:34,050 --> 00:10:35,930 looking for their missing loved one. 185 00:10:37,470 --> 00:10:39,060 It was overwhelming. 186 00:10:39,097 --> 00:10:42,347 Within a day, we had 70, 80 leads. 187 00:10:44,769 --> 00:10:47,229 I never thought it was going to be easy. 188 00:10:47,272 --> 00:10:48,862 What I did think, though, 189 00:10:48,898 --> 00:10:50,778 it was going to be relatively straightforward 190 00:10:50,817 --> 00:10:53,737 in running it out. For the life of me, 191 00:10:53,778 --> 00:10:57,698 I had no idea what direction it would take, 192 00:10:57,741 --> 00:11:01,121 and I had no idea on how far it would go. 193 00:11:16,509 --> 00:11:19,849 One of the first leads to come in was a lead 194 00:11:20,347 --> 00:11:22,847 representing a missing boy named William Bundy. 195 00:11:24,225 --> 00:11:25,975 It was actually two leads that came in. 196 00:11:26,019 --> 00:11:27,519 One was from his sister, Laura. 197 00:11:28,229 --> 00:11:30,069 I remember leaving that one night, 198 00:11:30,106 --> 00:11:31,436 saying he was going to go to a party, 199 00:11:31,483 --> 00:11:33,363 and that was the last time I saw him. 200 00:11:34,944 --> 00:11:39,574 His sister basically explains that in about 1976, 201 00:11:40,450 --> 00:11:44,370 her brother got dressed to go to a party, left the house, 202 00:11:44,412 --> 00:11:46,582 and he was never seen or heard from again. 203 00:11:46,623 --> 00:11:48,923 They filled out a missing-persons report 204 00:11:48,958 --> 00:11:50,588 with the Chicago Police Department. 205 00:11:53,004 --> 00:11:55,174 Chicago Police Department couldn’t find him, 206 00:11:56,424 --> 00:11:59,394 and a couple years later, the Gacy case broke, 207 00:12:01,054 --> 00:12:03,894 and they immediately said, "Maybe this is Bill." 208 00:12:05,684 --> 00:12:08,234 They went to my predecessors, who said, 209 00:12:08,269 --> 00:12:10,399 "Well, do you have dental records? 210 00:12:12,065 --> 00:12:14,185 We need dental records to compare to these bodies," 211 00:12:14,234 --> 00:12:16,154 so they went to their dentist, but he said, 212 00:12:16,194 --> 00:12:19,034 "I destroyed all my records when I retired. 213 00:12:19,447 --> 00:12:21,657 I don’t have any dental records for Bill." 214 00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:24,240 At that time, there was really no other way 215 00:12:24,285 --> 00:12:28,955 to identify a markedly decomposed or skeletal remains 216 00:12:28,998 --> 00:12:31,918 other than dental records, so that was it. 217 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,670 There was nothing more they could do. 218 00:12:36,381 --> 00:12:40,091 Another lead was from his friend from growing up. 219 00:12:40,593 --> 00:12:43,603 Bill’s friend told me that the last time he saw Bill alive, 220 00:12:45,306 --> 00:12:46,676 Bill had came up, 221 00:12:46,725 --> 00:12:49,055 and he had a big wad of money in his pocket, 222 00:12:49,102 --> 00:12:52,692 maybe a couple hundred bucks, and in the ’70s for a young guy, 223 00:12:52,731 --> 00:12:55,481 a couple hundred bucks was a lot of money. 224 00:12:56,484 --> 00:12:58,074 So he said, "Where’d you get that money from? 225 00:12:58,111 --> 00:12:59,571 You selling drugs?" 226 00:12:59,612 --> 00:13:01,452 He goes, "No, I’m working construction for a guy," 227 00:13:01,489 --> 00:13:06,119 and he found that to be curious because Bill was small statured. 228 00:13:06,161 --> 00:13:07,451 He wasn’t one of these 229 00:13:07,495 --> 00:13:11,115 sort of larger construction-worker types. 230 00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:14,210 So right away, I’m prioritizing it. 231 00:13:14,252 --> 00:13:16,502 Does this fit what I know about the Gacy case? 232 00:13:17,255 --> 00:13:18,415 And it absolutely did. 233 00:13:18,465 --> 00:13:20,375 Here is a young man the right age. 234 00:13:20,425 --> 00:13:27,135 He was 17, 18 years old. Right time period, 1976, 1977. 235 00:13:27,182 --> 00:13:30,522 He’s in Chicago, and his friends say he works construction, 236 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:32,440 so I decided to pursue that one right away, 237 00:13:32,479 --> 00:13:38,109 so I met with Laura, and I met with Laura’s other brother, 238 00:13:38,151 --> 00:13:39,281 who was still living, 239 00:13:39,319 --> 00:13:41,069 and I collected their DNA sample. 240 00:13:42,364 --> 00:13:48,504 And Murphy’s Law, victim number 19, 241 00:13:49,496 --> 00:13:51,246 no matter what we did, 242 00:13:51,289 --> 00:13:55,999 we could not get a good, a perfect DNA profile. 243 00:13:56,044 --> 00:13:59,424 We only had a partial profile. It wasn’t enough, 244 00:14:01,007 --> 00:14:03,467 but the one thing that I learned through investigation 245 00:14:03,510 --> 00:14:05,220 is that victim number 19, 246 00:14:06,346 --> 00:14:08,966 when you look at their dental analysis, 247 00:14:09,015 --> 00:14:14,185 the upper canine teeth, the eye teeth were missing. 248 00:14:15,522 --> 00:14:18,442 They weren’t missing as a result of postmortem tooth loss. 249 00:14:18,483 --> 00:14:22,283 In other words, they didn’t fall out of the decomposing body. 250 00:14:23,029 --> 00:14:26,029 They were removed by a dentist prior to the death, 251 00:14:26,533 --> 00:14:28,203 and the sockets had healed, 252 00:14:28,243 --> 00:14:31,373 so I knew if I could get a picture of Bill smiling 253 00:14:31,413 --> 00:14:34,173 and I could see that the upper row of teeth 254 00:14:34,207 --> 00:14:39,207 were missing the eye teeth, that would be a fantastic clue. 255 00:14:40,255 --> 00:14:42,255 So I asked her, "Do you have a picture of Bill smiling?" 256 00:14:42,298 --> 00:14:45,588 She says, "Not really." She goes, 257 00:14:45,635 --> 00:14:48,505 "My mother was so distraught after he went missing, 258 00:14:48,555 --> 00:14:51,175 and after years, she started getting rid of his stuff 259 00:14:51,224 --> 00:14:53,444 because it was too hard to look at." 260 00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:55,056 I go, "Well, do you have anything?" 261 00:14:55,103 --> 00:14:56,603 She goes, "Well, I have his wallet. I have an ID. 262 00:14:56,646 --> 00:14:58,436 I have this. I have" ... She goes, "Oh!" 263 00:14:58,481 --> 00:15:01,651 She goes, "I have his teeth." I got, "What do you mean?" 264 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,530 She goes, "Well, he went to the dentist about a year 265 00:15:05,572 --> 00:15:07,452 before he went missing, 266 00:15:07,490 --> 00:15:09,700 and the dentist removed some teeth from his upper jaw." 267 00:15:09,743 --> 00:15:11,203 She goes, "I don’t know what it was. 268 00:15:11,244 --> 00:15:14,464 It was just two teeth, and he asked 269 00:15:14,497 --> 00:15:17,207 if he could have them and put them in a little jar." 270 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:19,590 You could picture a teenage boy wanting to go gross 271 00:15:19,627 --> 00:15:22,127 out his friends with his extracted teeth, 272 00:15:23,715 --> 00:15:26,715 so she brought the teeth down, and they were eye teeth. 273 00:15:28,595 --> 00:15:30,555 So the mitochondrial DNA, 274 00:15:31,139 --> 00:15:33,219 along with the case facts and circumstances 275 00:15:33,266 --> 00:15:34,766 and the absence of those teeth 276 00:15:34,809 --> 00:15:37,349 is what identified victim number 19. 277 00:15:37,771 --> 00:15:40,231 In Chicago’s own Gothic horror story, 278 00:15:40,273 --> 00:15:42,653 the first break in more than 30 years. 279 00:15:42,692 --> 00:15:47,282 Because of all of this work, victim number 19 280 00:15:47,322 --> 00:15:50,372 is never going to be known by a number anymore. 281 00:15:50,408 --> 00:15:52,788 Through DNA analysis, investigators say they now know 282 00:15:52,827 --> 00:15:55,657 that victim number 19 was William George Bundy. 283 00:15:56,289 --> 00:15:58,749 Bundy was buried as an unidentified Gacy victim 284 00:15:58,792 --> 00:16:01,672 here at Resurrection Cemetery in 1981. 285 00:16:01,711 --> 00:16:04,301 Laura O’Leary was Bundy’s sister. 286 00:16:04,339 --> 00:16:10,099 I know that the sorrow will eventually go away, 287 00:16:10,136 --> 00:16:11,806 and I’ll have a place to visit him. 288 00:16:19,813 --> 00:16:22,573 When do you stop trying to find a missing person? 289 00:16:24,484 --> 00:16:26,114 When do you stop caring? 290 00:16:26,152 --> 00:16:31,532 What is the cutoff when law enforcement and society 291 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,160 stop caring about an unidentified dead person, 292 00:16:36,871 --> 00:16:40,881 about a murder victim and about their families? 293 00:16:42,502 --> 00:16:46,842 And that’s really our overall philosophy on cold cases. 294 00:16:46,881 --> 00:16:48,431 We should never stop caring. 295 00:16:48,466 --> 00:16:51,506 We should never stop pursuing these cases. 296 00:17:01,771 --> 00:17:05,651 As I told you, when the FBI first came in to check on me, 297 00:17:05,692 --> 00:17:09,282 you said that you were kept out of the case back in ’78, 298 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:10,990 and that was only because of egos. 299 00:17:11,031 --> 00:17:13,701 They did not want a professional coming in 300 00:17:13,742 --> 00:17:15,832 and doing an investigation, 301 00:17:15,869 --> 00:17:17,579 so they did their sloppy investigation 302 00:17:17,620 --> 00:17:19,290 and let it slide that way. 303 00:17:19,330 --> 00:17:21,880 You see, everybody was so excited about the large, 304 00:17:21,916 --> 00:17:24,376 massive case, and everybody was looking with their egos 305 00:17:24,419 --> 00:17:26,249 as to how they could close this thing up, 306 00:17:26,296 --> 00:17:28,546 and you’re not the only one that really have hurt. 307 00:17:28,590 --> 00:17:30,930 You’ve had the victims’ family vent 308 00:17:30,967 --> 00:17:32,757 all their hostility towards me, 309 00:17:32,802 --> 00:17:34,642 and they think I’m the monster that killed their son 310 00:17:34,679 --> 00:17:37,719 or took out their son and stuff like that, when in fact, 311 00:17:37,766 --> 00:17:40,766 most of them don’t even have the remains of their own sons. 312 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,980 This story, just like so many other things, 313 00:17:46,941 --> 00:17:51,741 it still has people coming up with conspiracy theories. 314 00:17:51,780 --> 00:17:56,620 It still comes up with people claiming that 315 00:17:56,659 --> 00:17:59,699 the person identified has been misidentified, 316 00:17:59,746 --> 00:18:02,706 but some of it might be true, and we have to follow it up. 317 00:18:03,625 --> 00:18:07,455 Could there have been any misidentification? Sure. 318 00:18:08,004 --> 00:18:12,014 The means of identification have changed so much. 319 00:18:12,676 --> 00:18:16,466 Forensic dentistry is not today’s DNA. 320 00:18:17,013 --> 00:18:19,723 We didn’t have that back then, 321 00:18:19,766 --> 00:18:22,516 so if there is a misidentification, 322 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,360 I would be glad to have it corrected. 323 00:18:30,652 --> 00:18:34,662 I began to be involved in the Gacy case in May of 2011. 324 00:18:35,532 --> 00:18:37,872 Mrs. Sherry Marino came to my office 325 00:18:37,909 --> 00:18:39,659 for the purpose of having me look 326 00:18:39,703 --> 00:18:42,083 into whether her son, Michael Marino, 327 00:18:42,122 --> 00:18:45,042 the youngest alleged victim of John Wayne Gacy, 328 00:18:45,083 --> 00:18:47,793 had been misidentified many years prior. 329 00:18:48,586 --> 00:18:51,046 Sherry Marino had, I guess you call it, 330 00:18:51,089 --> 00:18:55,549 a mother’s hunch that the body in her son’s grave was not him. 331 00:18:56,886 --> 00:18:59,056 The third time when I went to the cemetery, 332 00:18:59,723 --> 00:19:04,103 I put my hand on the grave, and it felt cold. 333 00:19:04,144 --> 00:19:07,564 It felt ... It didn’t feel right. 334 00:19:09,399 --> 00:19:12,779 Michael Marino was 14 years old when he went missing 335 00:19:12,819 --> 00:19:16,779 on October 24th, 1976. 336 00:19:16,823 --> 00:19:20,623 Michael was going to go to a game room to meet his friend. 337 00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:23,750 Mrs. Marino recalls that he gave her a kiss on her cheek 338 00:19:23,788 --> 00:19:26,168 and said, "Mom, I’ll be back for the movie," 339 00:19:26,207 --> 00:19:29,587 and then that was the last time that she ever saw him. 340 00:19:29,627 --> 00:19:32,417 I just couldn’t believe it when he didn’t come home. 341 00:19:32,464 --> 00:19:36,184 She called the police to make a missing persons report. 342 00:19:37,469 --> 00:19:39,179 The police basically told her, 343 00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:42,770 as unfortunately they did many of the Gacy victims, 344 00:19:42,807 --> 00:19:44,597 that her son was likely a runaway. 345 00:19:45,477 --> 00:19:47,807 Mrs. Marino knew that Michael would not run away 346 00:19:47,854 --> 00:19:50,694 because he was a very dutiful son 347 00:19:50,732 --> 00:19:52,032 and loved his mother very much. 348 00:19:54,778 --> 00:19:57,028 She didn’t see any reason that he should’ve disappeared, 349 00:19:57,072 --> 00:19:59,952 so she continued to go to the Chicago Police Department, 350 00:19:59,991 --> 00:20:02,081 so much so that I guess they were sort of getting 351 00:20:02,118 --> 00:20:04,448 a little bit tired of her coming there all the time, 352 00:20:04,496 --> 00:20:07,036 and the youth officer that was responsible for the son 353 00:20:07,082 --> 00:20:08,582 was telling her, "Oh, Mrs. Marino, 354 00:20:08,625 --> 00:20:10,085 I saw your son on the street the other day. 355 00:20:10,126 --> 00:20:12,586 He ran away from me, and I can’t catch him. 356 00:20:12,629 --> 00:20:15,669 I’m not going to chase him. He’ll come home when he wants." 357 00:20:15,715 --> 00:20:17,465 So this went on for about 2 years 358 00:20:17,509 --> 00:20:21,009 where she continued to go to Chicago police inquiring about, 359 00:20:21,054 --> 00:20:22,764 "any progress on my son?" 360 00:20:23,807 --> 00:20:25,977 They repeatedly told Mrs. Marino 361 00:20:26,017 --> 00:20:27,977 that Michael was a runaway. 362 00:20:28,019 --> 00:20:30,109 Because of the kind of treatment that she received 363 00:20:30,146 --> 00:20:32,936 from the Chicago Police Department at the time, 364 00:20:32,982 --> 00:20:35,782 she spent thousands of dollars of her own money 365 00:20:35,819 --> 00:20:37,649 hiring investigators 366 00:20:37,696 --> 00:20:41,776 and actually putting herself at physical safety risk 367 00:20:41,825 --> 00:20:43,445 to try to find Michael. 368 00:20:43,493 --> 00:20:46,503 She went in drug houses and other very dangerous places 369 00:20:46,538 --> 00:20:49,498 to try to see if she could get any information on her son. 370 00:20:51,501 --> 00:20:55,711 In 1978, John Wayne Gacy was arrested. 371 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,180 After the bodies started to be discovered in the crawl space, 372 00:21:00,844 --> 00:21:03,564 the Chicago Police Department made a general call 373 00:21:03,596 --> 00:21:07,676 to the public to provide dental records from their sons. 374 00:21:08,101 --> 00:21:10,601 They are telling them to send dental records and charts 375 00:21:10,645 --> 00:21:13,265 because that’s the only way the bodies can be identified. 376 00:21:13,314 --> 00:21:16,574 So Mrs. Marino did provide Michael’s dental records 377 00:21:16,609 --> 00:21:18,489 to the Chicago Police Department, 378 00:21:18,528 --> 00:21:21,738 and in early 1979, she was informed 379 00:21:21,781 --> 00:21:24,741 that her son was not a John Wayne Gacy victim, 380 00:21:26,077 --> 00:21:28,617 so she then continued to look for Michael 381 00:21:28,663 --> 00:21:30,793 because Michael was missing. 382 00:21:31,708 --> 00:21:33,128 Even at the time of the trial, 383 00:21:33,168 --> 00:21:35,878 her son was not identified as being a victim, 384 00:21:36,546 --> 00:21:38,506 and she went to them and said, "Is he a victim?" 385 00:21:38,548 --> 00:21:39,878 They said, "Mrs. Marino, 386 00:21:39,924 --> 00:21:42,684 we’re positive your son is not a victim." 387 00:21:43,553 --> 00:21:48,683 And then in March of 1980, Mrs. Marino had a fateful day 388 00:21:48,725 --> 00:21:51,555 in which two detectives knocked on her door, 389 00:21:51,603 --> 00:21:53,273 and they said, "Mrs. Marino, we’re very sorry. 390 00:21:53,313 --> 00:21:55,573 We made a huge mistake about telling you 391 00:21:55,607 --> 00:21:57,187 that your son was a runaway, 392 00:21:57,233 --> 00:22:01,203 and he has just been identified as a victim of John Wayne Gacy." 393 00:22:04,908 --> 00:22:08,998 They did take her to a police precinct 394 00:22:09,037 --> 00:22:10,707 to look at certain items 395 00:22:10,747 --> 00:22:13,787 that they had recovered from John Wayne Gacy, 396 00:22:13,833 --> 00:22:16,673 and Mrs. Marino said that she was not able to identify 397 00:22:16,711 --> 00:22:19,801 any items that would’ve matched Michael’s. 398 00:22:20,256 --> 00:22:25,006 So she went to see Dr. Stein at the morgue, and she inquired, 399 00:22:25,053 --> 00:22:27,853 "How is it that she was only identified now 400 00:22:27,889 --> 00:22:31,309 and not earlier when you’ve had all this information, 401 00:22:31,351 --> 00:22:33,231 the dental records for all this time?" 402 00:22:33,269 --> 00:22:36,729 And she said at first he was kind of cordial 403 00:22:36,773 --> 00:22:37,983 and nice with her, 404 00:22:38,024 --> 00:22:39,364 but it sort of ended on a bad note 405 00:22:39,401 --> 00:22:41,861 where he basically told her, "Mrs. Marino, 406 00:22:41,903 --> 00:22:44,863 just be thankful you got a body, and be done with it." 407 00:22:44,906 --> 00:22:47,906 Does that mean it wasn’t him? We don’t know. 408 00:22:48,618 --> 00:22:52,158 But she becomes convinced that he was misidentified. 409 00:22:56,292 --> 00:22:59,882 Mrs. Marino buried a body in a grave 410 00:22:59,921 --> 00:23:01,801 and has gone to that cemetery for, 411 00:23:02,257 --> 00:23:04,297 oh, we’re talking 30-some years now 412 00:23:04,968 --> 00:23:06,798 and wondered in her own heart 413 00:23:06,845 --> 00:23:09,385 as she stood there whether this body and this grave is her son’s 414 00:23:09,431 --> 00:23:11,641 because of the way everything went down. 415 00:23:16,312 --> 00:23:19,862 Now, later in 2011, Mrs. Marino came to me 416 00:23:19,899 --> 00:23:21,939 as a result of seeing the news interviews 417 00:23:21,985 --> 00:23:25,105 about the 1998 dig on Miami Avenue, 418 00:23:25,905 --> 00:23:28,025 and she told me she had a great suspicion 419 00:23:29,325 --> 00:23:31,785 may not really be one of Gacy’s victims. 420 00:23:34,247 --> 00:23:35,997 I told her ... I says, "Mrs. Marino, 421 00:23:36,041 --> 00:23:39,001 I don’t know if your son is or isn’t a victim, 422 00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:42,666 but I can tell you how we can get the answers to that." 423 00:23:44,424 --> 00:23:47,894 Dorsch took her to the office of the medical examiner, 424 00:23:47,927 --> 00:23:49,387 Nancy Jones, 425 00:23:49,429 --> 00:23:54,889 and helped her file a request for the autopsy results 426 00:23:55,769 --> 00:24:00,359 of the person she’d been told was her son. 427 00:24:01,107 --> 00:24:03,857 A little while later, Dorsch called Jones 428 00:24:03,902 --> 00:24:07,072 and asked how that search was coming. 429 00:24:07,113 --> 00:24:09,203 Nancy Jones told Mr. Dorsch 430 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:14,200 that they would not be able to get the autopsy reports, 431 00:24:14,245 --> 00:24:17,915 and so that was why he brought Mrs. Marino to my office 432 00:24:17,957 --> 00:24:20,917 because I do a lot of Freedom of Information Act requests. 433 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,010 I didn’t know what we would find in the autopsy report. 434 00:24:24,464 --> 00:24:27,054 It could’ve simply been that I would be able to let her know 435 00:24:27,092 --> 00:24:28,392 that this was her son 436 00:24:28,426 --> 00:24:31,466 and that she would find some closure from that. 437 00:24:33,223 --> 00:24:35,103 Once I obtained the autopsy report, 438 00:24:35,141 --> 00:24:39,941 however, I found discrepancies. It particularly mentioned 439 00:24:39,979 --> 00:24:42,229 that there was no antemortem tooth loss, 440 00:24:43,775 --> 00:24:47,735 basically that there was no tooth loss prior to death, 441 00:24:48,238 --> 00:24:49,818 and yet when I reviewed 442 00:24:49,864 --> 00:24:52,084 Michael’s personal dental charts, 443 00:24:53,201 --> 00:24:57,041 the tooth number 15 was in fact listed as being missing. 444 00:24:58,123 --> 00:25:00,883 In addition, there was a possible broken collarbone 445 00:25:00,917 --> 00:25:02,247 for the decedent. 446 00:25:02,293 --> 00:25:05,383 Mrs. Marino said that Michael did not ever have 447 00:25:05,422 --> 00:25:07,382 a broken collarbone to her knowledge, 448 00:25:08,008 --> 00:25:12,798 and thirdly, the autopsy report also mentioned the fact 449 00:25:12,846 --> 00:25:15,926 that there was possible Native American heritage. 450 00:25:15,974 --> 00:25:18,064 Again, I checked with Mrs. Marino. 451 00:25:18,101 --> 00:25:20,941 Michael was of pure Italian ancestry. 452 00:25:22,564 --> 00:25:25,484 Also, originally Mrs. Marino was told 453 00:25:25,525 --> 00:25:30,025 that Michael was not a Gacy victim in early 1979. 454 00:25:31,281 --> 00:25:35,791 Then in March of 1980, she was all of a sudden told 455 00:25:35,827 --> 00:25:38,287 that Michael was, in fact, a Gacy victim. 456 00:25:39,164 --> 00:25:42,384 Why did it take that long? What changed in the meantime? 457 00:25:42,417 --> 00:25:47,797 We actually have no idea. In September of 2011, 458 00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:51,799 I decided to file what’s called a petition for exhumation. 459 00:25:52,927 --> 00:25:56,847 The judge held a hearing in October of 2011 460 00:25:57,223 --> 00:25:59,313 and granted the petition. 461 00:26:01,144 --> 00:26:04,064 Shortly after this comes word through the media 462 00:26:04,105 --> 00:26:06,265 that Tom Dart, the sheriff of Cook County, 463 00:26:06,316 --> 00:26:10,396 has decided to reopen the Gacy case. 464 00:26:10,445 --> 00:26:12,195 No mention of Mrs. Marino. 465 00:26:12,238 --> 00:26:14,028 We believe with the type ... 466 00:26:14,074 --> 00:26:15,954 I thought it was a little bit suspect 467 00:26:15,992 --> 00:26:20,332 because it followed within less than a week of our announcement 468 00:26:20,372 --> 00:26:24,002 that we would be exhuming body number 14. 469 00:26:24,542 --> 00:26:26,802 Long prior, of course, Mrs. Marino, 470 00:26:26,836 --> 00:26:29,546 along with former detective Dorsch, 471 00:26:29,589 --> 00:26:33,299 had already visited Nancy Jones, the medical examiner, 472 00:26:33,343 --> 00:26:35,973 so ostensibly, the sheriff’s office would’ve been well aware 473 00:26:36,012 --> 00:26:38,852 of the fact that we were looking into this case. 474 00:26:38,890 --> 00:26:40,350 We’re sitting on things that we believe 475 00:26:40,392 --> 00:26:42,232 can help bring closure to that. 476 00:26:42,268 --> 00:26:45,058 To me, that would be somewhat immoral for me not to do that. 477 00:26:45,105 --> 00:26:47,315 My immediate thought was, this was a way for him 478 00:26:47,357 --> 00:26:51,067 to try to take away the steam from the exhumation 479 00:26:51,111 --> 00:26:55,031 and tried to give a positive spin to the sheriff’s office 480 00:26:55,073 --> 00:26:57,203 with respect to the John Wayne Gacy case. 481 00:27:00,995 --> 00:27:05,205 We conducted the exhumation in September of 2012 482 00:27:05,250 --> 00:27:08,380 at the Queen of Heaven Catholic cemetery in Hillside. 483 00:27:09,379 --> 00:27:10,959 According to the judge’s order, 484 00:27:11,006 --> 00:27:13,506 the Cook County medical examiner’s office 485 00:27:13,550 --> 00:27:16,640 was able to be present to take DNA samples. 486 00:27:17,345 --> 00:27:19,345 However, no one from the sheriff’s department 487 00:27:19,389 --> 00:27:23,229 or the medical examiner attended the exhumation. 488 00:27:24,102 --> 00:27:28,402 The body was brought to an area at the cemetery, 489 00:27:29,274 --> 00:27:32,864 a warehouse where they were able to then lower the coffin. 490 00:27:32,902 --> 00:27:36,662 The pathologist arrived. The coffin was then opened. 491 00:27:36,698 --> 00:27:40,488 The first thing with as looking for was the jaws to see 492 00:27:40,535 --> 00:27:43,905 if this tooth was actually there or not, tooth number 15, 493 00:27:43,955 --> 00:27:45,415 that was so critical apparently 494 00:27:45,457 --> 00:27:48,377 to the original identification of Michael Marino 495 00:27:48,418 --> 00:27:53,548 as being body number 14 because the principal basis 496 00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:56,220 on which the exhumation petition granted 497 00:27:56,593 --> 00:27:58,303 was that the teeth did not match, 498 00:27:59,220 --> 00:28:01,310 so I was looking for the maxilla, 499 00:28:01,348 --> 00:28:04,518 which is the upper part of the jaw that goes along here, 500 00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:07,479 and the mandible, which is the lower part of the jaw. 501 00:28:09,522 --> 00:28:11,322 They were both completely missing. 502 00:28:18,239 --> 00:28:20,619 That’s another thing everybody misses from this, 503 00:28:21,618 --> 00:28:27,368 is that the victims’ families are not aware that ... 504 00:28:28,208 --> 00:28:29,668 In a lot of the cases, 505 00:28:29,709 --> 00:28:33,759 they don’t even have the remains of their own sons 506 00:28:34,506 --> 00:28:37,256 because Dr. Stein never turned over the whole body, 507 00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:42,596 and they took the heads off of each one of the victims, 508 00:28:42,639 --> 00:28:44,519 so when you turn over the remains 509 00:28:44,557 --> 00:28:47,557 to the loved one’s family, they don’t have the whole body. 510 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,570 So basically, there was only half of the skull in the coffin. 511 00:28:55,568 --> 00:28:58,278 I was very concerned about what had happened with that, 512 00:28:58,321 --> 00:28:59,781 and, of course, we found out later 513 00:28:59,823 --> 00:29:02,203 that the medical examiner’s office 514 00:29:02,242 --> 00:29:05,702 took the jaws off all of the skulls 515 00:29:05,745 --> 00:29:07,495 for the Gacy victims at the time. 516 00:29:10,125 --> 00:29:11,745 The upper and lower jawbones 517 00:29:11,793 --> 00:29:13,673 from all of the unidentified victims 518 00:29:13,712 --> 00:29:16,302 were retained by the medical examiner’s office 519 00:29:17,257 --> 00:29:19,337 after the bodies had been buried 520 00:29:19,384 --> 00:29:22,554 because the main way to identify skeletal remains 521 00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:26,305 at that time was through dental identification, 522 00:29:26,808 --> 00:29:29,558 and they kept them at the ME’s office for years 523 00:29:29,602 --> 00:29:33,232 and years and years, hoping that a family member 524 00:29:33,273 --> 00:29:34,773 of a missing person would come in and say, 525 00:29:34,816 --> 00:29:36,606 "This is my missing loved one’s dental records. 526 00:29:36,651 --> 00:29:38,491 Could you compare them?" 527 00:29:38,528 --> 00:29:40,608 They were removed from the medical examiner’s office 528 00:29:40,655 --> 00:29:42,315 in 2009 529 00:29:42,365 --> 00:29:44,775 and then buried in the Homewood Memorial Gardens, 530 00:29:46,202 --> 00:29:48,202 but at the time of the exhumation, 531 00:29:48,246 --> 00:29:50,416 the pathologist took certain samples. 532 00:29:50,457 --> 00:29:53,377 Apparently there was part of the mandible 533 00:29:53,418 --> 00:29:58,088 that was still connected to the upper part of the skull 534 00:29:58,131 --> 00:30:01,431 that he was able to extract in order to do DNA. 535 00:30:02,218 --> 00:30:06,308 These samples were submitted to an independent laboratory, 536 00:30:06,348 --> 00:30:08,558 very well-respected, called Labcorp. 537 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:14,310 We had received the report back on October 24th of 2012, 538 00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:18,436 exactly 36 years to the day that Michael Marino went missing. 539 00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:23,279 They were able to obtain a profile from the mandible. 540 00:30:23,323 --> 00:30:25,123 It said that there was not a match 541 00:30:25,158 --> 00:30:28,288 between Mrs. Marino and body number 14. 542 00:30:28,953 --> 00:30:32,463 It was no shock. I always knew it. 543 00:30:34,668 --> 00:30:37,588 It’s just a feeling that you get when you’re a mother. 544 00:30:37,629 --> 00:30:40,339 We notified the sheriff’s department 545 00:30:40,382 --> 00:30:45,552 so they would be aware of it, and then we went to the media. 546 00:30:46,429 --> 00:30:48,219 Mrs. Marino wanted the world to know 547 00:30:48,264 --> 00:30:50,234 that her son was not a victim 548 00:30:50,266 --> 00:30:52,516 and that she had been right all the way along. 549 00:30:57,273 --> 00:31:01,243 Mrs. Marino hired some attorneys to look at this. 550 00:31:01,820 --> 00:31:04,490 We let them know, anything we can do to help, 551 00:31:04,531 --> 00:31:07,871 but there was this somewhat adversarial relationship 552 00:31:07,909 --> 00:31:09,489 I never understood, 553 00:31:09,536 --> 00:31:12,406 and then once they did their own analysis, 554 00:31:12,455 --> 00:31:14,205 we kept asking them to send us it, 555 00:31:14,249 --> 00:31:15,829 and we had a hard time getting it, 556 00:31:15,875 --> 00:31:17,955 and then once we got it, I’ll never forget, 557 00:31:18,003 --> 00:31:19,883 it was all redacted. And it was like, 558 00:31:19,921 --> 00:31:22,591 "Guys, if there’s something here, we want" ... 559 00:31:23,425 --> 00:31:25,505 People make mistakes. If there was a mistake made, 560 00:31:25,552 --> 00:31:28,512 if you have something, we would love to run it out. 561 00:31:28,555 --> 00:31:31,345 Certain information was redacted from the information 562 00:31:31,391 --> 00:31:32,891 we gave to the sheriff’s department. 563 00:31:32,934 --> 00:31:35,984 This included personal information on Mrs. Marino 564 00:31:36,021 --> 00:31:39,481 as well as Mrs. Marino’s full DNA profile 565 00:31:39,524 --> 00:31:42,444 because Mrs. Marino did not trust the sheriff’s department, 566 00:31:42,485 --> 00:31:46,195 based on prior conduct she had had with the authorities. 567 00:31:46,239 --> 00:31:47,489 According to my viewpoint, 568 00:31:47,532 --> 00:31:48,912 there’s nothing in the redactions 569 00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:51,700 that we gave the sheriff that would inhibit them 570 00:31:51,745 --> 00:31:55,865 from determining whether this was a misidentification or not. 571 00:31:58,335 --> 00:32:02,835 Eventually, we had a meeting with Detective Moran 572 00:32:02,881 --> 00:32:04,511 from the sheriff’s department. 573 00:32:04,549 --> 00:32:07,889 We provided the notes from the exhumation. 574 00:32:07,927 --> 00:32:12,267 We provided certain photographs, as well as the DNA results, 575 00:32:12,807 --> 00:32:15,267 but Detective Moran was basically claiming 576 00:32:15,310 --> 00:32:18,520 that we could not have gotten our sample from the mandible 577 00:32:18,563 --> 00:32:20,733 because the jaws had already been removed. 578 00:32:20,774 --> 00:32:22,864 Because no one from the sheriff’s department 579 00:32:22,901 --> 00:32:28,321 or the medical examiner attended the exhumation of body 14, 580 00:32:28,365 --> 00:32:30,905 they would have no idea that the pathologist, 581 00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:34,580 in fact, did discover a portion of the mandible 582 00:32:34,621 --> 00:32:36,461 that was still attached to the skull, 583 00:32:36,498 --> 00:32:41,288 so they expressed their sorry to Mrs. Marino regarding her loss, 584 00:32:41,336 --> 00:32:43,586 but they refused to acknowledge 585 00:32:43,630 --> 00:32:45,970 the DNA results with respect to her son. 586 00:32:48,927 --> 00:32:53,467 We have said from day one that our heart 587 00:32:53,515 --> 00:32:56,595 bleeds for his mother. Our heart bleeds for her. 588 00:32:56,643 --> 00:32:59,353 We’ve never once said, "Listen, everything was perfect." 589 00:32:59,396 --> 00:33:02,016 No. There was no DNA. There was no nothing back then, 590 00:33:02,065 --> 00:33:03,525 so could mistakes have been made? 591 00:33:03,566 --> 00:33:05,066 Possibly, sure, 592 00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:07,820 and that’s no shame on this person, that person. 593 00:33:07,862 --> 00:33:09,822 The only shame would be is if you dig your heels in and say, 594 00:33:09,864 --> 00:33:13,084 "Listen, we’re not reviewing it, and we’re perfect." No. 595 00:33:13,993 --> 00:33:17,043 After the results came back, I made an offer. 596 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,500 We would be happy to provide Mrs. Marino’s DNA, 597 00:33:20,542 --> 00:33:24,302 and we will have it retested with an independent lab 598 00:33:24,337 --> 00:33:26,547 with the bone samples that we had collected, 599 00:33:26,589 --> 00:33:29,429 and the sheriff’s office absolutely refused. 600 00:33:29,467 --> 00:33:30,677 The sheriff’s department said, 601 00:33:30,719 --> 00:33:32,889 "Let us do our own DNA test," 602 00:33:33,638 --> 00:33:36,598 but because Sherry Marino felt that authorities 603 00:33:36,641 --> 00:33:39,351 had never treated her well and somewhat bullied her, 604 00:33:39,769 --> 00:33:41,349 she didn’t trust them 605 00:33:41,396 --> 00:33:43,976 and would not allow them to do their own DNA test, 606 00:33:44,024 --> 00:33:46,404 so they were at a bit of a stalemate. 607 00:33:46,443 --> 00:33:49,783 Why on Earth would Sherry Marino and her lawyer 608 00:33:50,655 --> 00:33:55,035 and the scientists they hired conspire 609 00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:59,370 to produce a result that’s not legitimate? 610 00:34:00,123 --> 00:34:02,673 So the question really has to go back to the sheriff. 611 00:34:02,709 --> 00:34:06,379 Why wouldn’t he want to work with that result? 612 00:34:07,464 --> 00:34:09,094 When we were re-examining it ... 613 00:34:09,132 --> 00:34:10,842 because we really wanted to help this mother out. 614 00:34:10,884 --> 00:34:13,144 We wanted to make sure we didn’t miss anything here ... 615 00:34:13,178 --> 00:34:18,388 the odontologist, I think it is, who was there for the trial, 616 00:34:18,433 --> 00:34:22,943 who did all the dental work, he still helps us on cases. 617 00:34:22,979 --> 00:34:25,149 He had the dental records from the body 618 00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:27,650 that had been recovered from the crawl space, 619 00:34:27,692 --> 00:34:29,782 and I remember him holding it up like this, 620 00:34:29,819 --> 00:34:33,159 and they were the same, and he was like, "I don’t ... 621 00:34:34,032 --> 00:34:37,702 This is identical. I did not make a mistake here." 622 00:34:37,744 --> 00:34:41,834 We’re continuing to waste manpower and economics 623 00:34:41,873 --> 00:34:45,043 on an issue that is long gone. It is ... 624 00:34:45,085 --> 00:34:47,705 Unfortunately, these two things, 625 00:34:47,754 --> 00:34:50,674 the body and Marino are one and the same, 626 00:34:50,715 --> 00:34:55,095 and I feel bad for Mrs. Marino that we keep stirring this pot. 627 00:34:57,931 --> 00:35:00,891 In that time, the principal means of identification 628 00:35:00,934 --> 00:35:02,564 was dental records. 629 00:35:02,602 --> 00:35:04,942 That is entirely different now when we have DNA. 630 00:35:06,773 --> 00:35:09,193 I find it somewhat ironic that the sheriff’s office 631 00:35:09,234 --> 00:35:13,914 is utilizing the jaws and the teeth to conduct 632 00:35:13,947 --> 00:35:18,197 their forensic investigation into unidentified Gacy victims 633 00:35:18,785 --> 00:35:21,705 but refuses to acknowledge our DNA results. 634 00:35:23,164 --> 00:35:26,634 Our door will always be open. They could call anytime. 635 00:35:30,672 --> 00:35:32,842 We all have undying sympathy for Mrs. Marino. 636 00:35:32,882 --> 00:35:39,012 Until we have reports and expert notes and reports, 637 00:35:39,055 --> 00:35:40,845 there’s really not much we can do. 638 00:35:40,890 --> 00:35:44,730 Sherry Marino has hard evidence 639 00:35:45,687 --> 00:35:47,517 that her son was misidentified. 640 00:35:47,564 --> 00:35:50,824 That’s an unidentified victim, and for some reason, 641 00:35:51,818 --> 00:35:53,148 the sheriff isn’t interested 642 00:35:53,194 --> 00:35:59,494 in adding those remains to his list. 643 00:35:59,534 --> 00:36:01,454 This is completely inconsistent, 644 00:36:01,494 --> 00:36:03,084 and I think it simply demonstrates 645 00:36:03,121 --> 00:36:06,001 that they want to control the narrative of the Gacy case 646 00:36:06,041 --> 00:36:09,501 and make sure that there are no errors that become public. 647 00:36:10,253 --> 00:36:12,843 If there was one misidentification, 648 00:36:12,881 --> 00:36:15,761 there could be multiple misidentifications, 649 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,800 and it could open up an entire forensic can of worms 650 00:36:18,845 --> 00:36:20,595 for the entire Gacy case. 651 00:36:20,638 --> 00:36:23,058 So the situation is where it is. 652 00:36:23,099 --> 00:36:26,189 She believes the DNA tests show that that is not her son. 653 00:36:26,895 --> 00:36:30,565 I believe he’s out there somewhere. I don’t know where. 654 00:36:30,607 --> 00:36:33,107 And the sheriff department’s, I think, 655 00:36:33,151 --> 00:36:36,651 feeling is that the DNA tests are faulty, 656 00:36:36,696 --> 00:36:38,196 and that is Michael Marino. 657 00:36:38,823 --> 00:36:41,493 My interest in the case is not the identified victims. 658 00:36:41,534 --> 00:36:43,044 It’s the unidentified victims, 659 00:36:43,078 --> 00:36:45,748 and Michael Marino was one of the identified victims. 660 00:36:57,967 --> 00:37:00,257 I think there are a lot of people out there 661 00:37:00,303 --> 00:37:02,973 that felt like there was more to this story, 662 00:37:03,431 --> 00:37:06,231 that there were these unanswered questions, 663 00:37:07,018 --> 00:37:09,018 and I’m sure there are a lot of people out there 664 00:37:09,062 --> 00:37:10,812 that wanted to put this story to rest 665 00:37:10,855 --> 00:37:13,685 and didn’t want to hear any more about John Wayne Gacy. 666 00:37:16,695 --> 00:37:18,195 But I think for authorities, 667 00:37:18,822 --> 00:37:20,662 a lot of careers were made on that case, 668 00:37:20,699 --> 00:37:22,739 and so maybe that’s part of the reason 669 00:37:22,784 --> 00:37:26,714 why they don’t want specific answers to these questions. 670 00:37:27,997 --> 00:37:30,327 To me, the biggest questions are, 671 00:37:31,001 --> 00:37:34,171 are there any bodies buried beneath Miami and Elston, 672 00:37:34,796 --> 00:37:40,886 and if so, who are these people? So in 1998, 673 00:37:40,927 --> 00:37:45,097 the Chicago Police Department digs at Miami and Elston. 674 00:37:45,140 --> 00:37:46,980 Weeks of anticipation in Chicago 675 00:37:47,017 --> 00:37:49,807 came to a head on a day where technicians paced off 676 00:37:49,853 --> 00:37:51,773 the yard and driveway of the home 677 00:37:51,813 --> 00:37:53,823 where John Gacy’s mother once lived. 678 00:37:54,441 --> 00:37:57,901 The radar company finds 17 locations to dig, 679 00:37:58,445 --> 00:38:02,155 but the Chicago Police Department only dug two holes. 680 00:38:02,198 --> 00:38:03,828 The digging proceeded in the two 681 00:38:03,867 --> 00:38:05,867 indicated sites throughout the day, 682 00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:08,250 but by nightfall, the operation was halted. 683 00:38:08,288 --> 00:38:11,788 We found a glass marble, a flattened saucepan, 684 00:38:11,833 --> 00:38:13,423 a 2 1/2 length of wire. 685 00:38:14,044 --> 00:38:15,464 The guy from the radar company said 686 00:38:15,503 --> 00:38:17,763 that was not a good investigation. 687 00:38:17,797 --> 00:38:20,467 It doesn’t make any sense to give 17 targets 688 00:38:20,508 --> 00:38:23,258 and only dig two, and Terry Sullivan, 689 00:38:23,303 --> 00:38:25,143 again, the former prosecutor in this case, 690 00:38:25,180 --> 00:38:28,730 said he doesn’t understand why there was so much secrecy. 691 00:38:28,767 --> 00:38:32,017 I was at that so-called dig on the northwest side, 692 00:38:32,395 --> 00:38:35,185 and from everything that I could see, 693 00:38:35,231 --> 00:38:36,941 the police department 694 00:38:36,983 --> 00:38:40,323 really didn’t want anything more to do with it, 695 00:38:40,362 --> 00:38:43,242 and why it was done in such secrecy, even to me, 696 00:38:44,074 --> 00:38:46,494 that was something that I wondered about back then. 697 00:38:53,041 --> 00:38:55,211 Today was the first scheduled that I’ve had 698 00:38:55,251 --> 00:38:58,051 with Sheriff Dart’s people 699 00:38:58,088 --> 00:38:59,958 regarding the Gacy investigation. 700 00:39:00,465 --> 00:39:02,255 This site in ’98 701 00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:05,140 was being investigated by Chicago Police Department, 702 00:39:05,178 --> 00:39:06,808 but they didn’t do it right. 703 00:39:06,846 --> 00:39:09,846 Now suddenly, Sheriff Dart is involved in this, 704 00:39:09,891 --> 00:39:12,441 and he was certainly not involved at the time, 705 00:39:12,477 --> 00:39:14,147 so he bore no responsibility 706 00:39:14,187 --> 00:39:16,517 for how this investigation was handled. 707 00:39:17,107 --> 00:39:19,147 But now he is in charge, 708 00:39:19,192 --> 00:39:21,362 so I put it all on the table, basically. 709 00:39:22,195 --> 00:39:24,985 I told him what I had, and I told him, 710 00:39:25,031 --> 00:39:27,411 "I think you’d be making a very big mistake 711 00:39:27,450 --> 00:39:29,540 if you think I’m walking away from this." 712 00:39:30,370 --> 00:39:35,250 My intention was always to get the truth to the Miami location. 713 00:39:35,291 --> 00:39:38,341 I’m still very skeptical if it’s going to be done correctly, 714 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,260 so I has to trust someone, so I’m going to give them 715 00:39:42,298 --> 00:39:44,428 a little bit of time to see where it goes. 716 00:39:46,553 --> 00:39:50,273 Toward the end of Gacy’s killing spree, 717 00:39:50,306 --> 00:39:52,846 he had literally run out of space. 718 00:39:54,269 --> 00:39:56,099 Could he then have used that place? 719 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,280 Most everything else we’d had was at his house, 720 00:40:00,316 --> 00:40:01,986 garage or the Des Plaines River. 721 00:40:02,485 --> 00:40:06,565 But based on his connection to the property, 722 00:40:06,614 --> 00:40:08,494 it was definitely worth running out. 723 00:40:11,911 --> 00:40:13,291 What we thought we could find 724 00:40:13,329 --> 00:40:16,329 there would maybe be remains of another victim. 725 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:19,340 Cook County state’s attorney has agreed 726 00:40:19,377 --> 00:40:21,417 to let the sheriff’s office search an apartment building 727 00:40:21,463 --> 00:40:24,343 where serial killer John Gacy worked as a janitor, 728 00:40:24,382 --> 00:40:27,052 but any additional digging at that site is still weeks 729 00:40:27,093 --> 00:40:28,853 or even months away. 730 00:40:29,471 --> 00:40:34,141 Dart announces in January of 2013 731 00:40:34,184 --> 00:40:35,394 that he got a search warrant 732 00:40:35,435 --> 00:40:38,225 for the property of Miami and Elston. 733 00:40:39,606 --> 00:40:43,606 Nothing is happening, so Bill and I are chugging along, 734 00:40:43,651 --> 00:40:45,151 following our various leads, 735 00:40:45,195 --> 00:40:47,565 interviewing various players in the story. 736 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,250 At the end of March of 2013, we cooked up an idea 737 00:40:55,038 --> 00:41:01,998 to have an open letter from Bill Dorsch posted on my blog, 738 00:41:02,045 --> 00:41:05,915 saying, "There are indications that the local authorities 739 00:41:05,965 --> 00:41:07,505 may be less sincere 740 00:41:07,550 --> 00:41:12,010 than you might think about their determination to find out 741 00:41:12,055 --> 00:41:14,385 if there were human remains at Miami and Elston. 742 00:41:15,392 --> 00:41:19,232 I’m appealing to my fellow officers to keep an eye out 743 00:41:20,230 --> 00:41:24,320 and let me know if it looks like something’s happening there." 744 00:41:27,445 --> 00:41:29,355 I posted that letter, 745 00:41:29,406 --> 00:41:33,366 and the next morning, Michael Sneed, 746 00:41:33,410 --> 00:41:36,870 a very well-known columnist for the "Chicago Sun-Times," 747 00:41:36,913 --> 00:41:41,383 had an item in her column saying that Tom Dart 748 00:41:41,418 --> 00:41:46,048 decided to do an investigation at Miami and Elston, 749 00:41:46,089 --> 00:41:49,259 and it turned out that the investigation had happened 750 00:41:49,718 --> 00:41:51,428 6 or 7 days earlier. 751 00:41:52,095 --> 00:41:54,595 Wait a minute. What? Why now? Why all of a sudden? 752 00:41:54,639 --> 00:41:57,309 They’re in. They’re out. "We didn’t find anything." 753 00:41:58,643 --> 00:42:02,233 I remember waking up and finding out about it and being pissed 754 00:42:02,272 --> 00:42:04,022 because I didn’t know about it. 755 00:42:04,733 --> 00:42:06,533 There were no journalists out there. 756 00:42:06,568 --> 00:42:10,158 When this whole story has been under a cloud of suspicion, 757 00:42:10,613 --> 00:42:14,453 a cloud of suspicion that somewhat involves authorities, 758 00:42:14,492 --> 00:42:17,252 you would’ve thought that maybe they would’ve wanted 759 00:42:17,704 --> 00:42:20,924 some independent viewers there 760 00:42:20,957 --> 00:42:24,627 to give it more credibility than what it has today, 761 00:42:25,253 --> 00:42:27,383 and yet, they just went out one night, 762 00:42:27,422 --> 00:42:29,132 and nobody knew about it. 763 00:42:30,592 --> 00:42:33,092 I think our biggest concern was that we wanted 764 00:42:33,136 --> 00:42:34,676 to run this out 765 00:42:35,513 --> 00:42:38,603 but do it in the least invasive way as possible. 766 00:42:38,641 --> 00:42:40,231 We tried to be very sensitive, 767 00:42:40,268 --> 00:42:42,558 and I think we were, to the property owners. 768 00:42:43,313 --> 00:42:45,023 We were trying to be very sensitive 769 00:42:45,065 --> 00:42:46,565 to the notoriety behind this 770 00:42:46,608 --> 00:42:49,608 because we knew if we did this thing with publicity, 771 00:42:49,652 --> 00:42:55,032 it was going to have helicopters above us, crowds around us. 772 00:42:55,075 --> 00:42:59,195 So we did this as somewhat of a, I don’t know, 773 00:42:59,245 --> 00:43:02,075 well-coordinated strike, for lack of a better word. 774 00:43:04,376 --> 00:43:10,506 We used a fantastic group of cadaver dogs from England, 775 00:43:12,342 --> 00:43:14,092 ground-penetrating radar, 776 00:43:14,135 --> 00:43:16,425 thermal imaging, all of the modern ... 777 00:43:17,347 --> 00:43:19,467 We call these remote-sensing equipment. 778 00:43:19,516 --> 00:43:24,556 We did ground-penetrating radar through the whole area, 779 00:43:24,604 --> 00:43:28,654 and so anywhere we found something, we went for it, 780 00:43:28,692 --> 00:43:32,152 and only once, we found some anomalies 781 00:43:32,195 --> 00:43:35,405 that were where landscaping work would’ve been done 782 00:43:35,448 --> 00:43:37,328 or something like that that would’ve fit the pattern, 783 00:43:37,367 --> 00:43:42,247 but nothing panned out. We didn’t come up with anything. 784 00:43:43,081 --> 00:43:44,421 After the end of the search, 785 00:43:44,457 --> 00:43:46,497 there was absolutely no evidence or information 786 00:43:46,543 --> 00:43:48,753 that there was anybody buried there. 787 00:43:52,382 --> 00:43:54,722 They claimed that they had some new radar equipment, 788 00:43:54,759 --> 00:43:56,179 et cetera, et cetera, 789 00:43:56,219 --> 00:43:57,509 but I went out and talked to people, 790 00:43:57,554 --> 00:43:59,314 and they said, "Look, the only way 791 00:43:59,347 --> 00:44:01,807 to know for sure is to dig up the whole yard, 792 00:44:02,559 --> 00:44:04,519 to dig up all the spots that you find." 793 00:44:04,561 --> 00:44:07,561 That’s the only way you’re ever going to have the answers. 794 00:44:09,232 --> 00:44:11,072 I think there was a concern for the property owner 795 00:44:11,109 --> 00:44:12,739 and so forth, but come on. 796 00:44:12,777 --> 00:44:16,657 You’re talking about tearing up a small yard and a driveway. 797 00:44:16,698 --> 00:44:20,538 How much can it cost to repave a driveway and resod a small yard? 798 00:44:21,703 --> 00:44:25,333 It’s a small price to pay to maybe get some answers 799 00:44:25,373 --> 00:44:27,793 one way or another for a lot of families out there 800 00:44:27,834 --> 00:44:30,754 who are living with a lot of questions. 801 00:44:32,422 --> 00:44:35,512 I believe that they have gone as far as they can. 802 00:44:35,550 --> 00:44:38,680 You just can’t go and dig up somebody’s property 803 00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:40,260 just because there’s a rumor 804 00:44:40,305 --> 00:44:43,095 that there may be something there, 805 00:44:44,267 --> 00:44:47,267 but I don’t think there’s anything out there right now 806 00:44:47,312 --> 00:44:52,232 that I know of that would lead to any further investigations, 807 00:44:52,275 --> 00:44:57,655 despite the fact that I firmly believe there are other victims. 808 00:45:08,625 --> 00:45:11,625 Do you actually feel that my investigation, 809 00:45:11,670 --> 00:45:14,340 that my case has been thoroughly investigated? 810 00:45:14,381 --> 00:45:15,551 I think during a case like this, 811 00:45:15,590 --> 00:45:17,760 and I find this in many major cases, 812 00:45:17,801 --> 00:45:20,851 that things are, at the time of the case, 813 00:45:20,887 --> 00:45:23,517 are done rather hastily 814 00:45:23,556 --> 00:45:25,426 because of the fact that there’s pressure on everybody. 815 00:45:25,475 --> 00:45:26,685 Yeah, but that’s a political answer. 816 00:45:26,726 --> 00:45:28,306 Yeah. 817 00:45:28,353 --> 00:45:29,483 I don’t want a political answer from you. 818 00:45:29,521 --> 00:45:31,941 Yeah. I want a basic answer. 819 00:45:31,981 --> 00:45:33,651 Do you actually think that the investigation 820 00:45:33,692 --> 00:45:35,532 of my case has been done right? 821 00:45:35,568 --> 00:45:38,488 I believe in your case that there needs to be ... 822 00:45:38,530 --> 00:45:41,450 that there should’ve been more focus on others, 823 00:45:41,491 --> 00:45:42,911 that there should’ve been others checked out 824 00:45:42,951 --> 00:45:44,701 a little more thoroughly. 825 00:45:44,744 --> 00:45:46,794 That’s the belief I’ve developed over these years. 826 00:45:49,290 --> 00:45:52,420 How many coincidences can you tolerate? 827 00:45:54,629 --> 00:45:56,969 You have Gacy and his political connections, 828 00:45:57,590 --> 00:46:01,340 a connection between Gacy and a sex-trafficking ring 829 00:46:01,386 --> 00:46:05,676 that’s making pornography, the suggestion of accomplices, 830 00:46:06,307 --> 00:46:07,727 more potential victims, 831 00:46:07,767 --> 00:46:09,727 the property at Miami and Elston. 832 00:46:09,769 --> 00:46:11,939 You just have to feel like there’s a thread 833 00:46:11,980 --> 00:46:13,520 that connects them all, 834 00:46:13,565 --> 00:46:15,605 that there’s something being hidden. 835 00:46:23,992 --> 00:46:27,792 It would be such an injustice if there are people 836 00:46:28,496 --> 00:46:31,826 that are still walking the Earth today 837 00:46:31,875 --> 00:46:33,625 that were part of any of it 838 00:46:34,836 --> 00:46:38,796 or any others that people don’t even know about. 839 00:46:39,507 --> 00:46:42,297 It would be very sad, very sad thing. 840 00:46:54,856 --> 00:46:58,896 Michael Rossi has stayed silent for four decades. 841 00:46:59,652 --> 00:47:02,612 Rossi has never been charged with anything in the Gacy case, 842 00:47:02,655 --> 00:47:04,775 so I’m not accusing him of anything, 843 00:47:04,824 --> 00:47:07,744 but I think he may have some answers. 844 00:47:08,995 --> 00:47:14,535 I’m hoping that one day, he will wake up and for whatever reason, 845 00:47:14,584 --> 00:47:19,924 have a change of heart and tell what he knows, 846 00:47:21,591 --> 00:47:25,641 even if it’s nothing. It would be good to hear 847 00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:28,769 from someone who was in that circle at that time. 848 00:47:33,645 --> 00:47:35,935 Today, we are announcing that we have identified 849 00:47:35,980 --> 00:47:39,650 one more of the original eight that were unidentified, 850 00:47:39,693 --> 00:47:41,493 Jimmy Haakenson. 851 00:47:41,528 --> 00:47:43,818 Jimmy was 16 years old at the time 852 00:47:43,863 --> 00:47:45,743 when he was murdered by John Gacy. 853 00:47:50,578 --> 00:47:52,118 More leads continue to come in. 854 00:47:52,872 --> 00:47:55,082 There’s family members from all over the country 855 00:47:55,125 --> 00:47:57,875 that are still looking for their missing loved ones, 856 00:47:57,919 --> 00:47:59,799 and then there’s new technologies that come to play, 857 00:47:59,838 --> 00:48:01,548 like forensic genealogy. 858 00:48:02,424 --> 00:48:04,014 Hopefully, we’ll solve other people’s cases like 859 00:48:04,050 --> 00:48:05,760 we already have done. 860 00:48:12,809 --> 00:48:15,479 I don’t think she knows what happened to him. 861 00:48:16,146 --> 00:48:19,016 She still just loves him, and she’s looking for him, 862 00:48:19,065 --> 00:48:20,725 and she wants to find him. 863 00:48:21,568 --> 00:48:23,358 Is it at all possible that there might be 864 00:48:23,403 --> 00:48:24,703 other victims above 865 00:48:24,738 --> 00:48:26,738 and beyond the 33 in these other states? 866 00:48:30,577 --> 00:48:32,827 No. You keep wanting to go back to that shit, 867 00:48:32,871 --> 00:48:34,541 and I welcome you 868 00:48:34,581 --> 00:48:36,541 to go check out every state that I’ve ever been in. 869 00:48:36,583 --> 00:48:43,553 Okay. I find it inescapable 870 00:48:43,590 --> 00:48:46,090 that Gacy did not do this in other states. 871 00:48:47,969 --> 00:48:50,719 The guy traveled all the time all over the place. 872 00:48:50,764 --> 00:48:52,394 You’re trying to tell me for 2 seconds 873 00:48:52,432 --> 00:48:55,522 that that person would not be more emboldened 874 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,600 when he went to a different jurisdiction? 875 00:49:02,817 --> 00:49:06,527 People don’t often think about it this way, 876 00:49:06,571 --> 00:49:11,661 but being in any way an aspect of violent crime 877 00:49:12,452 --> 00:49:14,582 or a whole boxful of violent crimes, 878 00:49:14,621 --> 00:49:16,081 in John’s case, 879 00:49:16,122 --> 00:49:19,002 is a lot like dropping a rock in the middle of a pond 880 00:49:19,793 --> 00:49:21,633 because the ripples are going to go out 881 00:49:21,670 --> 00:49:26,930 until they can’t go any further, and everything is affected. 882 00:49:40,563 --> 00:49:43,863 Don Voorhees, he called me one day out of the blue, 883 00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:47,860 and he said, "My life has been ruined. 884 00:49:47,904 --> 00:49:49,614 I’ve lost my job." He says, 885 00:49:49,656 --> 00:49:54,036 "I lost my wife and family. I can’t eat or sleep." 886 00:49:54,077 --> 00:49:55,997 I didn’t know why he was calling me. 887 00:49:57,122 --> 00:49:58,832 We weren’t close. 888 00:49:59,499 --> 00:50:02,749 I think I urged him to get some professional help, 889 00:50:03,628 --> 00:50:06,798 but the next thing I heard was that he had committed suicide. 890 00:50:08,550 --> 00:50:11,680 I was impressed with how profound 891 00:50:12,512 --> 00:50:17,232 and how deep the injury is that is caused to these victims. 892 00:50:23,690 --> 00:50:29,070 You can’t bury history. It is something that happened, 893 00:50:29,863 --> 00:50:32,163 and it will be talked about for a long time, 894 00:50:32,198 --> 00:50:34,238 and you just deal with it, 895 00:50:34,284 --> 00:50:39,664 and you have to learn from what happened and make things better. 896 00:50:42,959 --> 00:50:45,959 And I think good things can come out of bad things. 897 00:50:52,552 --> 00:50:55,012 The one thing that has always, 898 00:50:55,055 --> 00:50:57,135 always been foremost in my mind 899 00:50:57,932 --> 00:51:01,982 is how many lives this one single guy, 900 00:51:02,020 --> 00:51:03,730 John Wayne Gacy, affected. 901 00:51:05,940 --> 00:51:07,690 And that’s always stayed with me. 902 00:51:10,737 --> 00:51:12,237 And I guess it always will. 903 00:51:17,202 --> 00:51:20,622 It never ends. The case just never ends. 904 00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:23,999 People come up to me to this day and will say, 905 00:51:24,042 --> 00:51:28,552 "You represented John Gacy. How could you do that?" 906 00:51:28,588 --> 00:51:30,718 And then on the other hand, they turn and they say, 907 00:51:30,757 --> 00:51:32,257 "But tell me all about it," 908 00:51:32,967 --> 00:51:35,927 because as much as they are disgusted by him, 909 00:51:35,970 --> 00:51:38,060 they want to know what he was like, 910 00:51:38,098 --> 00:51:39,308 and there will always 911 00:51:39,349 --> 00:51:42,349 be a fascination with John Gacy, always. 912 00:51:46,231 --> 00:51:49,281 Yeah. I just think that we’re kind of wrapping it up here. 913 00:51:50,068 --> 00:51:51,818 I think we accomplished something today. 914 00:51:51,861 --> 00:51:54,911 Certainly, we put something down on tape that has not been said. 915 00:51:55,657 --> 00:51:58,277 My feeling as a career law-enforcement officer is that 916 00:51:59,869 --> 00:52:02,659 if John Wayne Gacy is guilty, then he should be punished. 917 00:52:02,706 --> 00:52:05,826 If John Wayne Gacy has others involved, 918 00:52:05,875 --> 00:52:07,915 then they should be brought in, and they should be punished. 919 00:52:07,961 --> 00:52:11,841 Basically, I believe in total investigation and total justice, 920 00:52:11,881 --> 00:52:14,721 and that’s really what I’ve been looking for all along.